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kungfuwaynewhoI wrote this big long entry about how I haven't been able to write any fic in awhile, beyond a few crappy paragraphs here and there, but it was boring and whiny even to me. I was rereading for typos before posting and I was like, shit, this is the epitome of no1curr.
So instead I am going to ask a fandom-nonspecific question, in the hope that the answers will help me figure something else out. And, you know, be interesting to read besides.
What is your all-time favorite ship? Why? And what was the moment/scene/episode that made you feel really invested in that relationship? And if you can't narrow it down to one, just write about two or three. (But not, like, ten. Commit, you wishy-washy girl.) (Unless you're a boy.) (Do any boys even read this?)
It occurs to me that I should get the ball rolling. As much as I've greatly loved other ships since, and as much as it's hard to really be objective about the whole thing, I'd have to say that ship that meant the most to me in general - though certainly not right at this moment - would be Mulder and Scully from The X-Files. It wasn't my first ship (that would be Link and Zelda, tyvm), but XF in general was a show that aired at a critical time in my life. I was 11 when it started, and 20 when it ended. So many of my dramatic sensibilities were formed by that show - what kind of stories I enjoy, how I like them being told, my expectations as far as quality goes, my love of shows that can experiment and defy their own premise, and so on. But most of all, the relationship between Mulder and Scully was an important one for me. I prefer ships that start off with a foundation of respect, and trust, and actual friendship. I'll never be that interested in two people meeting who seem to immediately fall in love without even knowing each other, for instance. Or relationships that start with lust and proceed from there.
Most importantly, I think, Mulder/Scully for me is all about the absolute equality in the relationship. For every time he saves her from danger, she saves him right back. Where one is strong, the other is weak, and they hold each other up. They might have disagreements but they don't belittle each other, or treat each other cruelly. That's what I want to see in a ship, even if it means foregoing manufactured ship drama. (Actually, especially if it means forgoing any of that.) And the first time I really knew that I needed them to be together would have been the Duane Berry arc - Scully is abducted and Mulder cannot save her, and has to hope against ever increasing odds that she'll return to him alive. It was the first time that there was the sense that they didn't just respect each other and depend on each other, and maybe be attracted to each other - Mulder was lost without her. He could not function. And to need someone else like that is pretty heady stuff.
So instead I am going to ask a fandom-nonspecific question, in the hope that the answers will help me figure something else out. And, you know, be interesting to read besides.
What is your all-time favorite ship? Why? And what was the moment/scene/episode that made you feel really invested in that relationship? And if you can't narrow it down to one, just write about two or three. (But not, like, ten. Commit, you wishy-washy girl.) (Unless you're a boy.) (Do any boys even read this?)
It occurs to me that I should get the ball rolling. As much as I've greatly loved other ships since, and as much as it's hard to really be objective about the whole thing, I'd have to say that ship that meant the most to me in general - though certainly not right at this moment - would be Mulder and Scully from The X-Files. It wasn't my first ship (that would be Link and Zelda, tyvm), but XF in general was a show that aired at a critical time in my life. I was 11 when it started, and 20 when it ended. So many of my dramatic sensibilities were formed by that show - what kind of stories I enjoy, how I like them being told, my expectations as far as quality goes, my love of shows that can experiment and defy their own premise, and so on. But most of all, the relationship between Mulder and Scully was an important one for me. I prefer ships that start off with a foundation of respect, and trust, and actual friendship. I'll never be that interested in two people meeting who seem to immediately fall in love without even knowing each other, for instance. Or relationships that start with lust and proceed from there.
Most importantly, I think, Mulder/Scully for me is all about the absolute equality in the relationship. For every time he saves her from danger, she saves him right back. Where one is strong, the other is weak, and they hold each other up. They might have disagreements but they don't belittle each other, or treat each other cruelly. That's what I want to see in a ship, even if it means foregoing manufactured ship drama. (Actually, especially if it means forgoing any of that.) And the first time I really knew that I needed them to be together would have been the Duane Berry arc - Scully is abducted and Mulder cannot save her, and has to hope against ever increasing odds that she'll return to him alive. It was the first time that there was the sense that they didn't just respect each other and depend on each other, and maybe be attracted to each other - Mulder was lost without her. He could not function. And to need someone else like that is pretty heady stuff.
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Date: 2011-01-15 05:09 pm (UTC)Sara and Grissom on CSI were probably my only other significant ship, in terms of participating in the fan community and reading fanfic and whatnot. I liked them because they were both very similar people (smart, reserved, obsessed with work) who brought out unexpected qualities in each other, and, just like Mulder and Scully, their relationship was subtle, gradual, and only had a payoff a few times a season. :)
I'm also a Roslin/Adama shipper, but I never really did anything about it beyond squealing and flailing like a little girl.
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:02 pm (UTC)How could I have forgotten this very important thing! I mean, it's not like TV is covered with uglies, but there are plenty of objectively attractive people who don't really do anything for me. But Mulder and Scully definitely brought the pretty.
Heh, I still haven't watched the majority of S9, and I have never, and probably will never, watch Travelers, LOL.
Sara and Grissom, definitely. I'd actually say out of all my other ships, they were the most like M/S.
And of course Roslin/Adama. Of course.
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Date: 2011-01-15 11:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 12:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 02:31 am (UTC)The only year I was really like invested was the miniature killer year - I was reading Your Tax Dollars at Work on a regular basis. That was also when everyone was afraid they were going to kill Sara off. Good times, good times. (Weren't we like metaphorically clutching each other when we were watching that season premiere, with her pinned under that car?)
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Date: 2011-01-16 06:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 05:37 pm (UTC)I started watching SG-1 because I'm a scifi fan and I loved the movie. I was also a huge RDA fan. As the series progressed, however, I found myself identifying more and more with Samantha Carter.
I saw her as someone who always did what was expected of her whether it made her happy or not. It wasn't until her father died that she finally decided to give in to her feelings for Jack. I never saw her as pining after him so much as her just refusing to settle for less than what she really wanted. I think they both just came to an understanding at that point that they were eventually going to be together; it would just take a while. I feel like she really began to approach achieving her full potential after this point. She no longer had to worry about leading what was considered a "normal" life anymore. She had proved to herself she could do it, but it wasn't what she really wanted. She could close the book on that particular chapter and move on.
She also had to endure the discrimination that comes with being a woman in a mostly male environment. You almost have to be better than the guys to get your just due. It's really hard to balance your femininity with the necessary toughness.
I think the fact that this hasn't completely been resolved at this point in the story is what keeps me involved.
I would say Sara and Grissom followed by John and Delenn would round out my top three.
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:03 pm (UTC)TEAL. DEER. (Part 1)
Date: 2011-01-15 05:49 pm (UTC)I'm one of those people who can't narrow down to just one favorite ship, but I have noticed that approximately every nine months to a year, I return to Fraser/Thatcher from due South. I'm not sure if it's because the fandom is still quite large for such an old show, or if it's something inherent in their relationship that keeps drawing me back, though possibly it's a combination.
As far as why I like them...part of it's rooted in the fact that Thatcher doesn't get a lot of characterization, and what she does get, especially in the later seasons, is contradictory and often headdesk-inducing. But she also gets some awesome bits in season two, and there are several moments where the really cool, kickass, funny person who lives under her icy shell gets to shine through. So when I write them, I like taking those really great moments and expanding on them, and in having Fraser discover and delight in Thatcher's hidden qualities, because there are a couple places in the show where he does both of those things (both of them making jokes while trapped in an egg incubator--and realizing that this person they thought was humorless actually has a pretty good sense of humor--and semaphoring compliments to each other, among other things). And Fraser himself is one of my very favorite characters ever. (I identify with him a lot.) There's tremendous complexity to his character, and you can interpret him so many, many different ways--is his politeness and uber-Mountieness completely genuine or partially an act? If so, why? How much is he changed by living in Chicago? So it's fun to write them together, because they're both interesting individually.
As well, I love how, despite outward differences, they're are actually quite similar on the inside, as she points out in a very cool speech on top of a speeding train. They're both decorated police officers, devoted to duty and justice, and they both have that sort of weirdness that, in the show, is an inherent quality of being a Mountie--they know semaphore, and how to fire ceremonial canons on a replica of the HMS Bounty, and are both totally cool with climbing on a moving Ferris Wheel and getting turned upside down while they defuse a bomb.
Re: TEAL. DEER. (Part 1)
Date: 2011-01-15 08:06 pm (UTC)Re: TEAL. DEER. (Part 1)
Date: 2011-01-15 08:50 pm (UTC)Plus it doesn't hurt that Paul Gross is absolutely gorgeous.
TEAL. DEER. (Part 2)
Date: 2011-01-15 05:51 pm (UTC)And canon gives us some intriguingly layered moments between them, sort of fridge-logical, "well, that was cute, but not really shipp--holy shit, that was REALLY, REALLY SHIPPY in retrospect!" things. An episode that I hate for being ridiculously contrived and just dumb nevertheless has this fascinating scene at the end: the premise is that Fraser has misinterpreted Thatcher's desire for him to help her fill out adoption paperwork as a request that he, er, help her have a child in the biological way (I told you it was a STUPID episode), and so he comes to her office, a bunch of flowers in hand, to say that he's willing, but would like to do things "incrementally," with dating and dancing and etc. before having kids, but definitely with having kids somewhere along the line. And my first time through the episode, I just read it as this sort of annoying, misinterpretation-used-for-cheap-laughs conclusion to an annoying episode, and then I realized exactly what he was saying/offering/wanting and went :O. There's a similar layering of meaning to the phrase "red suits you," which for a few episodes, anyway, becomes almost a code between them, standing in for all these things it would be inappropriate to actually say to each other, given their positions.
Whew. Okay, now that I've bored the hell out of you...
Re: TEAL. DEER. (Part 2)
Date: 2011-01-15 08:08 pm (UTC)Not to mention the awkwardness and the yearning. I'm a sucker for some good pining (I think it's XF's influence), and they pine very well.
PINING. DEAR GOD YES. This is one of those things that almost always gets me. I think it's one of those things that it is so easy to empathize with, and that ends up drawing you into the relationship, gets you invested in its outcome.
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Date: 2011-01-15 06:51 pm (UTC)I sort of fell into Buffy/Giles by accident. Giles was my favorite character, and I wanted to read more Giles fanfiction, and there's just not a whole lot of Giles-centric gen out there. So I started reading different 'ships, and the one that I took to was B/G.
I think I like them because (in the fanfiction, at least) Giles is the only person who can really, truly understand Buffy, and vice versa - both of them have the weight of destiny on them. Obviously, Buffy is probably stronger than Giles, but then again Giles can probably outwit Buffy. So they sort of complement each other. This is not to say that Giles is a total wimp or that Buffy is completely stupid; obviously not - it's just that they have different strengths.
Also I think there's this sense that Giles is maybe one of the only people who truly has Buffy's best interests at heart. He would sacrifice his very life for her, if it came down to it.
Canon-wise, the moment that all B/G 'shippers point to is in "The Prom". Giles has just finished Wesley that he should get over himself - that Cordelia is an adult now, and that Wesley should ask her to dance. Immediately after this, he seeks out Buffy, and goes to talk with her. (This is as close to canonical as our 'ship gets). (Then, of course, Angel shows up and ruins any chance of a B/G moment *fistshake*).
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:10 pm (UTC)Do you have any good Buffy/Giles fic recs? I was way on the other side of the fic world reading B/S, so I don't know that I'd even know where to start looking. And, um, I'm kind of curious now.
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Date: 2011-01-15 09:43 pm (UTC)Don't Give Your Heart (long, but good) - Ethan leaves Giles trapped in his own mind, can Buffy help him escape?
Tomorrows - Epilogue to "The Prom".
Then there's Watcher's Retreat by Rari Coss (another long fic, but good)- Giles finally gets to go to a Watcher's retreat... but something is amiss.
and Matched Set by Koala - Buffy and Giles become the hunted.
And if you want to search for yourself, buffygiles.net is the home for most of the B/G on the web.
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Date: 2011-01-15 10:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 07:19 pm (UTC)It's a tie, I think, between John/Delenn and Roslin/Adama. John/Delenn is not the oldest (I think the oldest would be Picard/Crusher, oddly enough) but it's the strongest of the older ones. When did I feel really invested. Well, although it was there all the time, I must confess I didn't *realize* how much I loved them both together more or less until John realizes for his part, that is, until "And the rock cried out". Yes, of course he *knew* before, they both did, but that's when they look it in the eye, as it were, and *decide* (I'm overusing the ** emphasis, I think). Anyway, I remember I was watching that episode on spanish tv and taping it, but I had to leave for work right after John's conversation with the preacher guy. I can tell you, my mind was NOT on the class I was giving that day, and when I came back home I had a moment of outright panic because I thought I'd forgotten to tape it and arrrggghhh... Thankfully, I hadn't, and the rest is history.
The other one would be Adama/Roslin. I guess relationships that are given time to evolve naturally and where the couple is slightly more mature appeal to me. I started watching BSG not so long ago and these two just blew me away. I watched the whole show three times in a row just for them. I can't remember any specific scene that made me realize I was especially invested in that couple, I really do think it was right from the start. The first moment I saw them together in the same scene, I thought "ok, there *has* to be something there. And that was that. I was hooked.
And, at number two (or three and four) depends how you are counting, would be Buffy/Spike and Janway/Chakotay, which last one is a guilty pleasure and not even really canon, but there you go.
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:13 pm (UTC)My first Battlestar Galactica episode was Resurrection Ship I, and the second was Part II, where Adama kisses her at the end? Yeah, I was done for. I don't normally start off shipping people from the get-go, but I did for those two.
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Date: 2011-01-15 09:22 pm (UTC)If you want to fall right into the Janeway/Chakotay ship, all you have to do is watch the pilot, and then go straight to "Resolutions". Oh man, such a pity the writers were too chicken shit to go anywhere with that. Of course, as soon as Seven of Nine and her sprayed on suit come on board, all bets are off. Ah, don't make me talk.
Also, the boyfriend just reminds me that I should have Torchwood's Jack/Ianto as an honorary mention. True, because they have it all: angst, extreme prettiness, suits, tragedy. Plus points for being one of the very few fictional homosexual couples that are not token and whose sexuality is not the main issue of the relationship and the show and the characters. Other than that, I can only think of Tara and Willow. It's always sci-fi in the end...
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Date: 2011-01-15 10:25 pm (UTC)I haven't even watched any Doctor Who, let alone Torchwood, LOL. Maybe some day! Although I feel like I'm just hopelessly spoiled for both shows.
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Date: 2011-01-15 10:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 11:30 pm (UTC)But...they did end up living happily ever after! They had a fight, sure, because they needed some conflict between them during the movie, but they kiss and make up by the end. I was actually really happy with that part of it.
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Date: 2011-01-16 08:45 am (UTC)Come to think of it, it may all be due to the fact that I was forced to see this dubbed in Spanish. I never do that. Dubbing is dreadful, they actually change the meaning of words and whole sentences just to make them fit the movements of the actors' mouths...
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Date: 2011-01-15 07:40 pm (UTC)Hell, I didn't even know what the word "shipping" meant until Mulder/Scully. (In fact, I'm pretty damn sure XF fandom coined that specific phrase, even though there were certainly other fandoms before it that participated in ship activities.)
(It's Alyssa. I don't want to sign up for an LJ account, hee.)
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:15 pm (UTC)Yes. Yes yes yes. This exactly.
And I'm pretty sure XF fandom came up with "shipping," too! I have such a clear memory of when we first got internet at home, and I was reading an Entertainment Weekly cover story on XF, and they brought up fandom and fanfic and shipping, and I was like, "Oh my God, I am not alone." (LOL, I can't remember if it was that article or a TV Guide article that actually printed URLs for some fanfic sites, but I carefully copied them all down in the library and brought it home and started reading fanfic. So God bless you, whoever you were, journalist-person who thought to do that.)
I...think you can sign in with Open ID with a Google account or something like that? I'm not positive, though.
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Date: 2011-01-15 07:53 pm (UTC)High School--
1. John and Abigail Adams (power couples turn me on, equal partnerships make me melt. R gave me a collection of their letters.)
College--
2. Andrew and Callista/Damon and Ellemir, Spell Sword and Forbidden Tower, Darkover series, Marion Zimmer Bradley (i loved them so very much. telepathy, femslash, and foursomes ftw! i have signed copies of the books.)
Graduate School--
3. Frank and Joyce, Hill Street Blues (hidden love, power and equality, and omg bubble baths. my ex and i had a date to watch the show over the phone every week. pre-skype, people.)
post-Graduate School
4. Vincent and Catherine, Beauty and the Beast (i found every locale in Central Park that they filmed. sometimes i lingered at the gates to the tunnels. the ex and i double-date watched this and ST:TNG with another couple every week.)
Present--
5. John and Delenn (only found the series in 2005, so a new/ongoing one for me. this ship opened the gates to writing for me, so ever grateful for that.)
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:17 pm (UTC)You've also just convinced me to move Marion Zimmer Bradley further up my "to read" list.
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Date: 2011-01-15 09:56 pm (UTC)I'm not too sure MZB would hold up either. Stick to the early original Darkover and you're probably safe. (That is written order, not story order, cause she flitted back and forth like whoa). I met her just before she died; strange little woman. Liked her though.
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:19 pm (UTC)I'll never forget that moment when we got to the end of the first episode.....and there they were. I remember thinking,"oh yeah, this is gonna be fun."
As an aside, I also enjoyed Andy and Connie from NYPD Blue. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.....
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Date: 2011-01-15 09:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 10:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 10:26 pm (UTC)(Except I was 12, so I was like, "OMG Mulder loves Scully they should get married squee!!!11")
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Date: 2011-01-15 11:53 pm (UTC)a) Their story. How fortuitous it was -- like, they never would've given each other the time of day if things hadn't gone just right (er, wrong). And how sad.
b) How realistic it was. Not only was the chemistry believable, but the way their relationship grew was one of the most believable things I've ever seen onscreen. The writing was amazing (especially early on), the acting was top notch, and EJO & MM had legitimate chemistry. Did you know Eddie improvised the Res Ship II kiss?
c) I identified with Laura immediately, and Bill is pretty much everything I want in a guy. I don't think the mini could have done any better at getting me to sympathize with Laura from scene one, and Bill's super rough and strong and masculine and intimidating and noble and passionate and smart and relationship-oriented and literature loving and sexy-voiced and tender and so incredibly GOOD. I'll stop here before I go spazzy all over your page and start vomiting hearts and glitter.
d) The literature-sharing thing. This would be Holly-fodder even if Eddie's voice wasn't liquid sex.
e) I've always had a thing for old-people ships. IDEK, Shannon.
f) It was in a TV show but didn't feel like it. I've never super-gotten into tv -- I'm not usually willing to commit to keeping the same schedule every week, and I've rarely run into anything good enough to tempt me to do so, as much as I've enjoyed the occasional show. I've always been more of a movie person, and I've really gotten into movie pairings, but then two hours later, it's over. You can only dwell on it for so long. BSG felt like a movie to me, but it was hours... and hours... and hours long, so I had that much longer to stew in the glorious shippiness and get completely batshit over it before it was over. Best of both worlds!
As for scenes, I knew from the very beginning of the mini I was going to ship them. I knew A/R was a "thing" (I think from your blog) before I started, but it also had that "these two are going to be irresistably adorable" vibe from the very beginning, and I liked the way they interacted. Their personalities and the respect issue was tantalizing when they butted heads. So I was invested immediately, but I'd say my favorite scene was the Res Ship II kiss. :)
ETA: g) Also, they're really, really mature. I almost forgot how important that was to me. They never argued over stupid stuff, respect was important to them, their priorities were in order. A lot of romances are dramarama over miscommunications and lies and insecurities, and I lose respect and interest quickly. Like, I love Starbuck, and I understand that she was deeply and unfixably messed up, but I got so sick of her toying around with Leemo and Sam. Pick one and have the balls to stick with it, dammit.
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Date: 2011-01-16 02:35 am (UTC)a) Their story. How fortuitous it was -- like, they never would've given each other the time of day if things hadn't gone just right (er, wrong). And how sad.
I never really think about it this way, but you're right. And, you know, I don't believe in fate in real life, but I quite like a smattering of it in my fiction, and there's obviously quite a bit of that in the BSG universe. What are the odds that you find the love of your life out of 50,000 survivors of a genocide?
Did you know Eddie improvised the Res Ship II kiss?
I did know that! I think RDM brings it up in the podcast for that episode. That and "cut the wire" are my favorite EJO adlibs.
d) The literature-sharing thing. This would be Holly-fodder even if Eddie's voice wasn't liquid sex.
I DON'T WANT TO CRY ABOUT HIM READING HER THAT BOOK. OKAY. SO JUST SHUT UP ALREADY.
e) I've always had a thing for old-people ships. IDEK, Shannon.
Hee! Do you consider Picard/Crusher an old-people ship? If not, who are your others?
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Date: 2011-01-16 11:23 pm (UTC)What was the "cut the wire" thing? And there was the original SSWA, and smashing up the (oops! rented!) model ship, which I think was my favorite story for the lulz. Any other cool ones?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5OVFss399w
Heeee, yeah, Picard and Crusher. Um, I'm having a hard time coming up with a list, but seriously, ask Cath. I have a reputation for having a soft spot for cute old people getting together -- like, when it's an option, I tend to ship it. The symbolic first (my first moment of fandom at all, actually) was when my mom showed me a '69 rom com called Cactus Flower, expecting me to be totally enchanted by the very young (and admittedly very charming) Goldie Hawn in her first movie role, and instead I went utterly batshit over Ingrid Bergman, who was about 54 at the time. She and Walter Matthau (49) got together, and I luv luv loved it [squee, squee] (although I wasn't particularly crazy about WM).
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Date: 2011-01-16 11:39 pm (UTC)Haha, I forgot about the ship. OMG, that's classic, too. And then he gets to joke about breaking it again when he has his old-man fight with Tigh.
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Date: 2011-01-16 11:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 11:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 08:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 11:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 03:31 am (UTC)I guess the other big 'ship for me is Buffy/Spike. I don't really write fic for BtVS these days (I feel as though I've said everything I wanted to say), but that was huge. There was so much potential there. There was that friendship vibe sometimes, and the hate-fuck other times, and so much freaking chemistry it was ridiculous. By the end, though, I thought they were friends who had seen the best and the worst in each other, and I liked that they trusted and loved each other, even if their timing was completely wrong.
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Date: 2011-01-16 11:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 09:05 pm (UTC)I've been getting into Ugly Betty recently, and I ship Betty/Daniel HARD. From about midway through the first season, they're very close, and they seem to grow toward each other throughout the entire series. The first shippy moment for me is when they're talking on the Brooklyn Bridge in S1's "In and Out," but the subtext becomes more apparent once Betty starts growing into her look and Daniel moves away from his man-sluttiness.
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Date: 2011-01-16 11:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 10:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 11:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-17 06:36 am (UTC)I guess it's partly because neither one of those couples are the main draw for me for those shows. And a few other fandoms where I have big ships, that is often the more interesting part of the show to me. So I don't know really. I just don't have a satisfactory answer for this!