A Question.

[kungfuwaynewho]

What are people's thoughts on Real Person Fiction?  Have you read any of it?  Does the very idea of RPF squick you out?  Do you think less of a writer who tries her hand at RPF?  Is there some RPF pairing you would want to read or even write but don't?  Do you have an unabashed love of RPF (and don't care who frakking knows)?

I'm not saying yet why I'm asking!  But I am curious.

Comments

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've been there. I had a staged reading of one of my scripts, and there was a lot of, "No, that's not what that scene is about; why are you reading the line like that?!; did you even read the script?"

But I don't know; I think that's part of the creative process as much as anything else. Unless you want to just lock it up and never share it, once it's out there, people are going to take it and make it their own. We've always retold stories, added new characters and twists and ideas, transformed and transfigured things; from ancient mythology right up to today. Interaction in any form, really, I guess.

Eh, I'm not going to post anything. I don't see the point in posting anything that everyone besides one person is going to scroll right past - which is exactly why I brought it up in the first place!

[alto2.livejournal.com]

You know, I was thinking about this in the car on the way home tonight and it occurred to me that what bothers me more about fic isn't that it's playing with other people's stuff (though that is an element), it's that a lot of it is not all that well-written and it frequently strikes me as out of character. I think that's linked to the "other people's stuff" thing for me, in a way I'm not sure I could explain if I had to, but overall, I'd rather stick with canon than read something that's not well done. (There could be an element of MFA snobbery here--I've noticed that my tolerance for poor writing has dropped dramatically since I started that program--but it's not intentional.)

But I'm an anomaly, and I know that. And I don't have any trouble with people writing what they want to write fic-wise as long as they don't hound me about reading it. Live and let live, and all that. :)

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely, there is a lot of horribly-written fanfiction out there. But Sturgeon's Law and all that; there's a lot of horribly-written everything out there. There have been times I've been reading a fic I want to like, because of the concept or the premise, but the writing just ends up being too much for me, and I have to bail.

And I just want to make the point that I'm not trying to change your mind, or make you read fic or anything; I guess I don't know that I've really come across many people in fandom who have said that they don't like fanfiction, and this has been a very interesting conversation. There's a part of me, even while I'm being a silly fan, that wants to compile data and write a thesis on silly fans.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

For the record, I haven't at all felt that you're trying to change my mind--and I hope you haven't felt that I'm trying to change yours. (Like I said, I know I'm weird. ;) ) It's always good to try to clarify exactly why you feel the way you do about something, and this conversation has been very useful for that. (I seem to have a terrible tendency to think it's because of one thing and then realize later that it's actually something else in situations like these. Especially terrible as it's lost me at least one friend, but that's a long story.)

Anyway...the thing with me and the bad writing is that, for me at least, the vast majority of it is bad. Which sounds weird, I know, and I am not sure how to clarify it except to blame it on the MFA. I don't know if it's that the writer's sensibility is different enough from the canon sensibility, or if it's that my standards are much higher than they used to be, or if it's just that it's not the sort of thing I want to read anymore, but I just don't enjoy it. I wish that made more sense than it does. (ETA: I think there's also a certain element for me of, "If you can write well enough for fic, why not write your own cool stuff?" I got back into writing after a long absence thanks to fic, so I get how it gets people's feet wet, but there's nothing like the rush of writing your own thing, figuring it all out as you go along, seeing how the pieces of your own puzzle come together...and if you never progress beyond fic, you'll never discover that for yourself. To me, that seems like an awful shame.)

As for fandom, well...I don't really regard myself as a fandom/fannish person. I think Doctor Who fandom, with all its thoroughly unexpected (to me, at least, when I first found it on LJ) fights and pettiness, beat that out of me. I stay far, far away from the madness now. So perhaps that's part of it, too? Could very well be. But as you've no doubt noticed, my journal is mostly about my life, with occasional posts about whatever I'm watching. I watch a few of the saner fan communities but I don't participate much. BTR is an exception for me, born out of an flist that was interested in watching B5 with me and their friends who wanted to come along for the ride.

So maybe the short answer is, "I'm just strange." :)

[icepixie]

I think there's also a certain element for me of, "If you can write well enough for fic, why not write your own cool stuff?" I got back into writing after a long absence thanks to fic, so I get how it gets people's feet wet, but there's nothing like the rush of writing your own thing, figuring it all out as you go along, seeing how the pieces of your own puzzle come together...and if you never progress beyond fic, you'll never discover that for yourself. To me, that seems like an awful shame.

Just to offer an alternate POV from someone who hears a lot of "you should write a novel" from RL folks: Fic and original stuff are wildly different, and for me, fic is a hell of a lot more fun to write. I like writing short little character-illuminating pieces, often ones which make considerable reference to canon, as well as cracky fun things that rely on canon knowledge to get all the jokes, and you just can't do that with original fic. (Well, maybe if you were writing fanfic of your own original series? What I'm saying is there has to be a mass of canon extant before I can get to the kind of stuff I like to write.) Plus there's the aspect of "I can slave over a novel (which is a format I hate writing in; my heart belongs to the 10,000-word-and-under set)*, and maybe, if I'm really lucky, after I revise it to fit what a publisher wants, something resembling my original concept might get seen by the wider world" versus "I can pour my heart into this fun little thing, have an audience already there--mostly composed of people whom I not only know, but who know the canon and can bring their own background with it to my fic--and we can enjoy it communally." In a sense, fanfic for me is a way of engaging and discussing the canon, and as such is closer to literary analysis than to storytelling.

Um. Okay, sorry, that just hit a nerve. Basically I'm saying that original does not necessarily equal worthier in some people's value systems, including mine, and so that's why some of us who write well enough for fic don't write our "own cool stuff," or go back and forth. Though I agree with you it's good to try both, just to see which one prefers, and I certainly don't want to try to force my own preferences on you. :)


* ETA: Okay, so there's a short story/flash fiction/etc. market out there, somewhere, but my understanding is that it's pretty dead.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

Fic and original stuff are wildly different

Okay, so...to back up and reiterate other points I've already made:

1. I'm very well aware of that. I wrote a fair amount of fic before I started working on my own projects and then went to grad school, which I mentioned upthread.

2. I have no problem with people writing whatever their little hearts desire as long as they don't insist that I read it. (It's sort of my attitude toward sex and religion, too. I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own bedroom or church, nor do I want to know. On the rare occasion that I'm curious about something, I'll ask. As long as you don't try to force your orientation/practices/etc on me, we're good. I said that upthread as well.)

3. Grad school changed a lot for me, one notable thing being my tolerance for fic.

4. I'm an anomaly.

Re: point #1, not only am I well aware of that, I also, in a previous life, argued your point in a conversation very similar to this one. I'm not saying that my way is the only way (see points #2 and #4). I am saying that a helluva lot of people spend their lives writing other people's characters and never go out and try anything more, and I think that's a crying shame. It's like riding around on a bike your whole life because you're afraid to try driving the car. It's a wasted opportunity, even if it's only to discover that there are good reasons why the bike might be better for you. I have never said, "Thou Shalt Only Write Original Fiction" (see point #2). For me, it's vastly more interesting and fun; for you it's not. That is fine. At least you gave it a try.

Basically I'm saying that original does not necessarily equal worthier in some people's value systems

I haven't said anything to the contrary! (Also, "value systems"? All I've done is express my opinion, plainly state several times that I'm the square peg that doesn't fit into the round hole, and attempt to explain why.) ::beats head against desk very very hard::

Okay, so there's a short story/flash fiction/etc. market out there, somewhere, but my understanding is that it's pretty dead.

Not so. I have friends from grad school who sell stuff all the time, and flash is, for reasons beyond my comprehension (though let me state very clearly that I don't care if other people write it) the very hot thing right now.

I would also point out that publishers and agents know what they want for a reason. Everyone I've spoken to or heard on a panel (and I just heard a whole helluva lot of them the other week) talks about how their book was so much better by the time it went to press than it was when they got the agent/book deal, and that's because you can almost never really see your own work objectively until you've had some distance from it, and because these people work with books every day and love them and know what makes them good or not. If an agent or an editor starts telling you to turn your book into something you very strongly feel it's not, you have the wrong agent or editor. I am well aware that my book is going to need edits once I find an agent and possibly also once it finds a publisher. That's how it works and I want it to be as good as it can possibly be. (Right now it's as good as I can make it on my own, and the agent/editor are there to help me get it the rest of the way.)

The idea that these people take books and turn them into something that doesn't resemble the author's original intent is the exception, not the rule, and often the product of working with disreputable folks. (And having recently read books by two friends, one self-published and one pubbed through a very small press, I can only say that they both had great concepts and pretty good execution, but really would have benefited from editorial input--the villain in one, for instance, needed some serious beefing up--and that the very small press is clearly very small for a reason, because the editor there isn't worth the space she takes up, and the fact that she allowed my friend's book to go out as it did made me want to cry, because it wouldn't have taken much to whip it into shape.)

Okay, sorry, that just hit a nerve.

Likewise.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

I am saying that a helluva lot of people spend their lives writing other people's characters and never go out and try anything more, and I think that's a crying shame. It's like riding around on a bike your whole life because you're afraid to try driving the car. It's a wasted opportunity, even if it's only to discover that there are good reasons why the bike might be better for you. I have never said, "Thou Shalt Only Write Original Fiction" (see point #2). For me, it's vastly more interesting and fun; for you it's not. That is fine. At least you gave it a try.

I don't think this is necessarily applicable to everyone, though. Some people may enjoy writing but have no desire to come up with their own characters, or their own universes. Some of those people write fanfiction; some of them become studio executives. (Ba-dum-chee!) Different aspects of storytelling are attractive to different people, I guess, would be my overall thesis on this whole thing.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

"It's a wasted opportunity, even if it's only to discover that there are good reasons why the bike might be better for you."

That, right there...is what I said. Emphasis added. I said almost exactly what you just said in your comment, but in a different way, i.e., "At least give it a try and see if you like it and if not, that's cool." Can we please stop arguing over things we don't disagree on now?

[icepixie]

I'm not saying that you were insisting everyone write original fic forever more, and if I somehow gave that impression, I apologize. I know you aren't insisting anything of the kind. From your wording in the original comment I responded to, it sounded like you didn't understand why someone would prefer it, so I was offering my perspective/explanation, with no judgment intended.

I haven't said anything to the contrary!

I interpreted, "If you can write well enough for fic, why not write your own cool stuff?" as meaning that you thought it was better to write original fic than fanfic, although I think in conflating this with other arguments I've had on the subject, I extrapolated beyond "for you, yourself" to "inherently," and for that I do apologize.

I did not know that about the flash fiction market! (Actually, I do know someone who gets some of hers published, but she writes erotica, and somehow I thought it was only in that genre that it was taking off.)

I think it's great that the publication/editorial process works for other people, and I'm sure that for people who are willing to put in the work, it gets great results. (Hell, I've seen it work for academic essays as an editorial assistant.) I, personally, being both lazy and controlling, have no desire to participate in it as a writer of fiction, and that's one of the constellation of reasons I prefer writing fanfic to original fiction. That's all I meant earlier, and again, apologies if that wasn't clear.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

I am already going to be late to work, so please forgive me for being brief, but: thank you. I feel much better now that we're back on, if not the same page perhaps (I really don't know), pages that at least coexist in the same book.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

See, here's the thing for me (and this may apply to only me, afaik): I have an MFA in screenwriting. I want to be a screenwriter professionally. I consider myself one even if I haven't sold anything yet. It's incredibly important to me, and I work really hard at it. I wrote three feature-length screenplays last year, as well as revised a TV pilot.

I don't find that mutually exclusive with writing fanfic at all. In fact, I think I've become a better writer since I started writing fanfic last summer. To write good fic, you have to make the characters read as true to the characters everyone knows from the show. So you have to examine those characters and figure out what makes them "them." How they would react to any given situation, how they interact with other characters, how those interactions are different depending on the other character in question, their dialogue - all the little things that differentiate, say, John Sheridan from Michael Garibaldi beyond that they are portrayed by different actors. So you take all of that, and you apply it to your own fic writing, and if you succeed, people tell you that your writing is in-character, which is good. But then I can kind of reverse that process for my own original stuff. If I'm creating a character from scratch, I've got to build all that canon myself. What makes my characters unique from one another? What can I add into a scene that instantly fleshes that character out in the simplest, most expedient way? What is the one line that is going to epitomize that character? Believe it or not, these are skills I've honed writing fanfiction.

And I guess I'm with icepixie on this one, too. I kind of bristle at the idea that one particular form of writing is inherently better than any other; I felt like that well before I started writing fanfiction myself, and even before I went into writing. Literary novels are better than SF; poems are better than prose; dense plot-driven stories are better than character-driven fluff. Whatever. I tell people I write movies, and I hear all the time, "Why don't you write books? Have you tried to write a book?" As though I failed at writing books, obviously a better form, and just ended up writing movies instead.

Also, yeah, sometimes putting the puzzle of your own stuff together is overrated, hee. When I'm struggling with my third act and how to build tension to the climax, sometimes it's nice to just write some fanfiction that's for fun, and I can just lose myself in words and descriptions. Anyway, from the perspective of a fic writer.

I hear you on the fandom thing. Baby fun fandoms, or old dead fandoms; the ones in between tend to get bitter and contentious. I had to withdraw from BSG fandom before it made me hate the show itself, even though I still loved it.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

Now I feel like you're trying to change my mind. I already said, at least once, that I've written fic. I know how it works. I know the drill. You couldn't pay me to write it now, but that's me. Your MFA experience didn't affect you the way mine did--fabulous! You don't find solving the puzzle exhilarating--fine! That doesn't make my experience any less valid, though, or change my perspective in any way. For me, writing fic was the stepping stone to writing my own things, and I know deep in my gut that I would regress, even if only temporarily, if I went back there. It's not like that for you, which is great, but that's my experience. I "can't go home again," and I'm okay with that.

And I am not saying, nor have I actually said at all during this conversation, that one type of writing is better than another. (One of the things I adored about my grad program is that you could write whatever you wanted, including supernatural gay porn, which a friend did for his thesis. I think it's tragic when programs take, say, SF writers and make them pretend to be literary to get a diploma and give them a complex about SF for the rest of their lives, like one Penn State grad I know).

I've said that I don't like fic, yes. I've also said that I just don't enjoy it and it's my personal preference. I have not said that it's inferior or that people shouldn't write it. I'm not sure exactly how we ended up here, because I said this way upthread and all was well, but just to be clear I will say one last time that I do not care what anyone else writes as long as nobody gets hurt and they leave it up to me to decide to read it or not. Write RPF. Write slash. Write literary fiction. Write video games. I don't care--do what you want (and frankly, why should someone else's opinion stop anyone in the first place?). But I do think that it's a shame not to at least take a field trip from the world of fic to try something else and see if it suits you. If not, no harm no foul. But if it does, what an awesome new world has just opened up to you.

And now that my forehead is even more sufficiently bloodied than it was when I got home from work tonight, I am going to bed.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Now I feel like you're trying to change my mind.

I already said I wasn't. I thought I was having an interesting conversation about writing and the different forms it can take, and what draws different authors to different aspects of storytelling.

Evidently, we were not having the same conversation, and you are not happy with the way the thread has gone. I think you could have expressed that in a more courteous way, without resorting to sarcasm and what is, frankly, a pretty damned rude tone.

And I am not saying, nor have I actually said at all during this conversation, that one type of writing is better than another.

My apologies, then, for misunderstanding you. You said a couple times that you thought it was a shame that people didn't try original fic. You said: I got back into writing after a long absence thanks to fic, so I get how it gets people's feet wet..., which I took to mean that you saw fic as something beginning writers did, or writers who had become rusty, and they worked in fic until they graduated to "real" writing. You have since corrected me. This is not how you feel. I did not come to my earlier interpretation of your comments maliciously, or to try and provoke an argument, as you've implied in your most recent comment.

I still can't figure out what I said that made you yell at me like this, or speak to me in such a condescending manner.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

I already said I wasn't.

I'm aware of that, but what I was also aware of was that your tone had changed into something that no longer felt that way. I said "I feel" because that's how I felt--it's not a statement of fact, or an accusation, just how I felt at that moment in the conversation.

I thought I was having an interesting conversation about writing and the different forms it can take, and what draws different authors to different aspects of storytelling.

So did I, and then I got three comments in quick succession that all seemed to be beating me over the head for something I didn't say, which I find more than a little frustrating. I took as much care as I possibly could to be clear about what I was trying to say the whole way through this discussion because I've been in conversations like this before and I know how they tend to go if you're the odd bird who doesn't like fic. The fact that I had done that and clearly still wasn't being heard was exasperating.

I don't think I yelled at you, but I felt very much like you were yelling at me, especially since it sure looked like your earlier comment about not trying to change my mind had gone by the wayside. Lecturing me in detail about how fic works was more than a little condescending, honestly (and is a big part of what gave me the impression that you were trying to change my mind), particularly since I'd already said I've written fic. I did my best to remain calm in my reply. I used italics for emphasis because it seemed quite clear to me that what I was trying to say was not getting through. If you read that as yelling, I'm sorry, but considering that important parts of what I'd said seemed to have been missed, I didn't see an alternative.

I also didn't imply that you'd tried to provoke an argument--I said that we were arguing, and for no good reason because I didn't disagree with you. That's all. I'm sorry if it came across otherwise, but that's all I was saying.

I've never believed there's any malice here. I still don't, and I don't think I've said otherwise. I do believe there's definitely been a very unfortunate misunderstanding, and I hope we've cleared that up now.